Posted by Rob on July 15, 2101 at 22:42:11:

In Reply to: Re: Re: Breaking the covenant posted by Living-Tribunal on July 15, 2101 at 13:38:20:

Living-Tribune, allow me to reply to your thoughtful comments. I'm a Baha'i of many years and have a fairly good grasp of Baha'i teachings and beliefs on some of the points you raise, though there are others more able than I to respond as well:

You stated:
"All religions (and I don't mean cults) are "genuine", even if you don't agree with them. The term "Religion" is not "a spiritual organization that the Baha'is can accept." If you think so, then your view of how GOD works through people can be greatly expanded."

My response:
Baha'is believe that all "Genuine" religions are "Revealed" religions coming from "Manifestations of God". All other religions are manmade and not "revealed directly through a Manifestion" and hence not from God directly, but are manifestations of human thought, and perhaps reflection from a revealed relgion. Yes, both revealed religions and man-made religions can be considered to be religions, and each is "genuine" or "real", but the Baha'i believes that only a revealed relgion through a Manifestation of God is perfect for the age it is revealed, and other faiths and creeds are not God's perfect will for the age.

Baha'is believe that the religion of God has been revealed continuously from the beginning of time through a series of Manifestations of God (Prophets, Messengers of God). These souls are different from the man who invents a religion of his own thoughts and inspiration. We believe the souls of the Manifestations of God pre-existed their physical creation in the human form, while the ordinary human soul is created at the moment of creation. No one can aspire to become a Manifesation of God. It is a spiritual station given to but a few by God and is not of their own volition.

This is not to say Baha'is do not see good in other religions which are considered to be man-made, as many are from inspired spiritual leaders or "Masters" who have great capacity. Rather, we see the good in all faiths, and as a practice of our own beliefs, seek to associate with people of all these faiths, especially if the association will result in harmony and unity.

You state:
"Evil is not what people usually associate with it. Evil is (=) disharmony. Not all negative-bad things are evil, and not all positive-nice things are harmonious. The Baha'i faith does have a concept of evil, it is simply not called evil due to the fact that it's meaning has been confused and abused by organizations. Many religions call things that they disapprove of, evil. But not liking something does not make it evil.
Evil is disharmony. You may also know it as disunity. Harmony, also known as unity and balance, is good. This is a Baha'i concept, as well as other religions. Think for yourself, with clarity, and don't let semantics fog your vision! Semantics is a cult trick used to remove clarity from your minds. It's one of Christianity's favorite weapons."

My reply:
The Baha'i Writings actually do refer to "The Evil One" and other such metaphors to convey the sense that there are undesirable attributes that appear in humans. As you correctly say, disharmony is one such trait, and indeed, the result of disharmony is disunity and so forth. Being that Baha'is desire harmony with all people, we are hopeful that those people who desire us and our Faith harm could be consulted with to overcome differences. But this is not always possible with every soul or organization. So wisdom dictates that the best possible harmony that can be achieved with some people and organizations whose intent is to whipe us off the face of the earth is, after faithful attempts to consult lovingly with no results, to leave such people to God and not associate with them until they are willing to do so in a harmonious way. This is why people who are enemies of the Faith are sometimes left to themselves. To attempt association with such people can actually create disharmony between them and the Baha'is and even create disharmony between Baha'is causing internal disunity. We continue to associate with our prayers on thir behalf.

You state:
All previous religions do NOT believe in a creature such as Satan. That is a biblical trend. Only religions based on the Biblical religions have this character. The Biblical Religions are *Judaism, Christianity, Islam*, and the religions that spring from these, (for example (Catholicism and Muslim). If you want to find truth you need to gather concepts from cultures other than these, because you are only being exposed to one worldview or paradigm (Neo-Platonic). In fewer words, it's a one-track way of thinking, and it's not a supreme way. Don't assume that only these religions are valid. That is a prejudice and even racist mistake. There are many other paradigms from with you could learn from."

My response:
As already stated, Baha'is believe that religious truth comes most perfectly from the Manifestations of God, though certainly other religions from manmade attempts have their own validity within their own context; but to the Baha'i, the most perfect of religions is that which is revealed by a Manifestation of God. This concept does not allow for a Baha'i to accept a manmade religion as being directly from God, though it is possible it was inspired by a seer. Baha'is believe that the only valid faith for our age is the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah has abrogated all previous religious teachings, even those of former Manifestations of God, and supllanted them with His own laws and teachings (though the essential relgious teachings remain the same as former Manifestations'). Former Manifestations had valid teachings for their day. Now is the Day of Baha'u'llah. Only after a thousand years, we believe, will another Manifestation appear, Who will abrogate whatever laws of this age, He wishes, and supplant them with new laws.

You state:
"Any man (or woman) can start a religion. You cannot deny that a MAN started Baha'i. Do you think that GOD does not inspire us all? We are all children and manifestations of GOD! However not all of us have the clarity which Bahá'u'lláh possessed. But many people in other worldviews do also have this clarity. They are very developed Shamans which are referred to as Masters. Masters are developed all around the world and emphasize different things depending on what is needed, harmony above them all. Know that they do also exist outside of your worldview."

My response:
As stated already, yes, man an woman is quite able to start a religious movement which can benefit the world to some degree, however, Baha'is believe that the Manifestation of God is not an ordinary inspired human; rather, He is a pre-existant soul, perfect in all respects, incapable of sin, and a perfect mirror of the attributes and Word of God. Others, who may be inspired by God cannot of their own volition achieve the station of a Manifestation of God by any act of their own will. This is a fundamental Baha'i belief based in our Holy texts. Some Baha'is are masters, shamans, Mullas, Mujtahids, Priests, Ministers, Reverends, Rabbis, Gurus, and other such spiritual leaders. Their mastery,inner wisdom, and striving brought them to the Manifestation of God for this age, Baha'u'llah. They are part of our world view.

You state:
"Masters are not to be followed. They are not masters of you, but only of their own reality. To us they are simply teachers, who are to be questioned. Learn from Masters and adopt what you learn into your own life, but do not follow blindly. Everything you except must be carefully thought about and excepted only when and if you agree. No human is infallible. If you follow blindly then AT BEST you are not gaining the lesson, and in worst-case scenarios you could be involved in a cult. Always have faith with your eyes wide open."

My Response:
A fundamental Baha'i belief, is as you state, to follow one's own inner guidance to the truth. As stated already, the Baha'i belief is that only the Manifestions of God (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, etc) are perfect and without sin. We would agree that all others are fallible and should be questioned and not followed without questioning, though they have much wisdom to share and should be highly respected in most cases.

You state:
"I understand that this may be a difficult concept for many people. But you must understand that people are different, in not only superficial ways like skin color and nationality. People like to live their lives in different ways. Your religion has been strongly guided by the culture of your society. This includes cultural feelings about sexuality, child rearing, violence, war, teaching etc. and so forth. Much of what your religions say about things is dictated by your society, and is not truly important for the evolution of mankind. Many times it's even counter productive."

My response:
The Baha'is believe that the Baha'i Faith's teachings from Baha'u'llah were often prompted by the social issues of both the time and place He lived AND to future social conditions in the world at large. Other Baha'i social teachings were given by 'Abdu-l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice within their own sphere of authority as interpretors and law-givers in response to social conditions in their times and for future social needs, likewise. The Universal House of Justice has the ability to be flexible in some social laws which can change with the social needs of the day. Guiding mankind to the social laws of the Baha'i Faith, we believe, is the best salvation for the peace and security of humanity. This is not to negate other's efforts in this regard, and we work shoulder to shoulder with many social movements whose programs are akin to ours.

You state:
"A good life is not only defined by your limited ideas of morality, righteousness, and spirituality. God learns about itself through us (among all other beings). Simply existing we learn about the universe and the universe learns how to interact with us, and the effects of that. Everything is a part of GOD so we are always learning about GOD, whether we listen to prophets, our inner voice, or nothing. You donāt have to look for spirituality to have it, because life is spiritual! Everything that you see in the world, positive and negative, is an aspect of GOD. This is true whether you like it or not. If there were a devil, the Devil would also be an aspect of GOD. Understand? It's the illusion that it's all separated, which is evil."

My response:
The Baha'i social teachings are very expansive and flexible in many ways and not as limited or culturally bound as you may have been lead to believe. Learning from our own mistakes, helping others who may be failing due to some evils which afflict them as innocent or even not-so-innocent people, are all readily recognized aspects of life to Baha'is who encounter social sissues willingly, with positive resolve, always striving to understand other's points of views. After-all, the Baha'i community is a global one, from all tribes and nations, and not at all of one culture. We recognize that God provides all things for the benefit of humanity, including the tests of daily life. We believe such tests "are as a medicine" to the sincere ones.

You state:
"The illusion that we are all separated can allow us to harm one another and mother Earth. We are all doing this at some point in our lives. But the source of it is not simply our lifestyle, culture, or morality. It's the evil illusion of separation (Disharmony). If each one of us, not matter who we are, Pope to prostitute, looks inside our hearts to a place where we are connected, we will find our guidance there."

My response:
Baha'u'llah stated that mankind is one, and this is the essential Truth as you note; but not everyone will accept this, and as you say, this is the cause of disharmony and disunity. As the Baha'i Writings clearly indicate, we must see beyond these differences, and recognize our essential unity as a race, a species, and from that foundation of belief we will rid ourselves of the evils that separateness due to prejudices causes. But to force and badger others to recognize this truth is not allowable and will actually cause more separateness. Rather, tact, wisdom, and even non-association for a time with an extreme few,is, in the end,the best medicine to help remedy such a situation. Baha'is associate with everyone...everyone but those who, in their heart, wish not to associated with us or do harm to our cause, though we pray they will come to recognize their folly and one day repent of their disharmonious behavior so we may associate productively.

You state:
"Yes your prophets and Masters can help spread wisdom to others, but destroying cultures, committing genocide, or shutting people out for feeling differently about something is not THE WAY. The way is to guide each person to think for herself and get in touch with the guidance inside of him or her."

My response:
A Baha'i would agree with this, and as our Writings state in various ways, to know one's own self and God's will within us, and seeing the truth through our own heart and not blindly through another's vision, is the way to true guidance.

You state:
"Yes, many people are angry, confused, and are out to cause disharmony. But it's up to each person to decide this for them self. We will not really know what anyone is about until we have listened to what they have to say, and seen what they have done with our own eyes. Blinding us will not protect us."
So I ask you again... How do you justify the Baha'i practice of disassociation with covenant-breakers? I understand avoiding people who are trying to cause disharmony, but I reiterate that it is each ones right to make a personal decision about these people. Let's also not forget that it is unconstitutional in America to dictate whom people can associate with or what they can read."

Baha'is believe that God gave humans free-will, and everyone may, if they wish, be as free as they wish to do as they wish. I may freely take this scalpal and become a life-giving brain surgeon, or I may take the same implement and become a cold-blooded murderer. The different in free will is the intention behind it. The intention of cutting out the disharmonious Covenant breakers is to prevent disharmony within the Baha'i community and a fracturing of it into a thousand sects. To bend one's free will to follow the Will of God as taught by the Manifestation is considered to be the best course to follow simply because no ordinary human can claim to have as perfect a will as that of the Manifestion. This concept prevades the true believer's life and their actions. Submission to the Will of God takes courage, fortitude and letting go of some of the free-will that God bestowed up us. Channeling our free-will is an act of a a spiritualized human being. To allow our free will to be totally free and unguided by any spiritual wisdom can only result in dispair, disharmony and injustice. While certain freedoms are extolled, others are not permissible, according to the Manifestation of God. No one is forced to follow the Baha'i concepts in this regard; it is truly voluntary, and act of free will, that we believe and follow this pattern of life. So we take seriously the guidance from our Baha'i Laws and Institutions which cut-off certain souls (Covenant breakers and certain enemies of the faith) who seek to create disharmony and to destroy the Faith's organization, just as a doctor takes seriously the need to cut out the cancer from the body to save the patient.

You state:
"Think about this seriously because you are only being given so long before legal action is taken. Do you not realize that this may even be grounds for stripping of Baha'i's status as a religion in the United States? This is a serious issue, which needs to be talked about within the Baha'i community, and I want to know what you think about it."

My response:
Actually, as you can read in this website, the law suites which the Covenant breakers had brought against the Baha'is in the 1960's actually brought about the legal recognition of the organization of the Baha'i Faith (the U.S. National Spiritual Assembly and the Universal House of Justice) as the sole legitimate bodies of the Baha'i religion, while stripping the Covenant breaker organizations of any such claim.

Regards,

Rob

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