Posted by Stuart (65.93.89.53) on August 19, 2002 at 08:11:29:

In Reply to: Re: Question on UHJ ? posted by Brett Zamir on August 14, 2002 at 01:25:40:

Brett Zamir writes:

"Although someone is certainly free in a civil rights sense to pick and choose from principles of the Faith and not accept the whole package, it is clearly internally inconsistent for someone to claim to be a Baha'i and reject the administration."

Respectfully, this only begs the question - it does not answer it. You ought to explain by firsthand knowledge how you can be so sure that the "administration" is absolutely infallible, a true spiritual extension of the Prophets, by example. Provide one or more truly remarkable edicts, rules, writings, orations, exfoliations... that would convince one that the Wisdom of the Prophets has been equally illuminated by the management or any other behaviour of the administration. I am not saying it is not so - I am asking for you, rather than repeat doctrine to provide examples that will make my heart soar with greater joy and inspiration.

"As Shoghi Effendi puts it "To dissociate the administrative principles of the Cause from the purely spiritual and humanitarian teachings would be tantamount to a mutilation of the body of the Cause, a separation that can only result in the disintegration of its component parts, and the extinction of the Faith itself." (World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, within pp. 3-5)"

Again, you are simply re-stating doctrine - this is good because John said it is good and John is never wrong. That is an excllent starting place but it proves nothing about the correctness of John's judgment. The thing that John says is good must demonstrate its goodness by examples. (I guess this is a twist on my first paragraph, but your own second paragraph is a basic repetition of your own first.

The quote about the Universal House of Justice being confined to men came from Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá (not to mention 'Abdu'l-Bahá's explicit designation of Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice and Bahá'u'lláh's indirect reference to the former and direct reference to the latter)."

Without argument as to the historical chronology in this last paragraph, I still see it as begging the question. You MUST, if you want to ANSWER the question, provide illustrious and insppirational examples of the administration's actions or words that justify the claim of "perfection".

And, finally, if the administration is so perfect, how come there has not been a significant increase of Baha'i numbers in the last ten years? (I guess your answer will be, as usual, "what is, is perfect,"
"cannot by doctrine be wrong or fallible" and it is up to us to figure out why the administration has been forced to cut back volunteers due to a decrease in donations. (These "normal, trivial, mundane" questions are normal questions of an ordinary person, not of a fundamentalist Baha'i. I respect that, but I also respect my right to question, with respect and logic, as science allows.)

this topic is closed - post at bahai-library.com/forum